Written by DJ Kuzco’s Poison
Nicho Santos is an up-and-coming beatmaker and producer from New Jersey. His output currently spans nearly 75 albums on bandcamp, and his work was recently featured on Ghais Guevara’s song Rayman Legends. I’ve been a big fan of Nicho’s music since discovering him on bandcamp this past year. Since then he has become one of the most frequently played artists on Donuts, which airs each Thursday from 4 to 6PM on KZSC. I sat down with Nicho to discuss his musical influences, composing process, and future endeavors.
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Kuzco’s Poison (KP)
I want to just start from the beginning and ask when did you first start writing or playing music? Were you always composing from the beginning, or did you play drums or some other instrument before?
Nicho Santos (NS)
I definitely think it started off with the normal Asian parent thing, the piano pipeline kind of thing. So I started piano around four to five years old, I suppose. I had played for 14 years before I quit during COVID. But it was kind of like the kicker, the one thing that got me jump started into music as a more serious thing. And it was this one Tom and Jerry episode — I was three or four years old when I saw it — this Tom and Jerry episode with Tom playing the piano and Jerry’s inside of the piano. And I thought the piano was so cool. It’s like, damn, does it really work like that? So I went to tell my mom “I want to do piano” at like three or four years old. With enough begging, she had obliged but there was one issue. The piano teacher thought I wasn’t good enough. So it ended up with me having to bust my ass during this placement test trying to showcase how well my instinctual knowledge of music was, and I ended up passing with flying colors. When I got older, that’s when I got introduced to my public school’s band program. I joined percussion around the fourth grade. I started off more melodically on like the marimbas and on the mallet based instruments. But then I started shifting my gears towards auxiliary unintentionally. I don’t know what kind of brought me to it, but it was just something with the way those types of rhythms made me feel. So I would just be knocking away at a practice pad at home whenever I had the chance and hogging the piano all the time.
KP
Do you think that having your teacher tell you that maybe you weren’t good enough instilled any competitive-ness in you when it comes to creating music, or a feeling of needing to prove yourself somehow?
NS
I guess it’s more inspiring to my work ethic. When it comes to music, I think I have the sense that I have my own kind of individuality. I try to remain humble. I already know my music is pretty weird, but I like it. That’s what really matters to me, as long as I like it. As long as I find that kind
of self-fulfillment. My teacher telling me that I wasn’t good enough, I think it’s a more-than-meets-the-eye kind of thing. I remember very early on in my productions / beatmaking, I would take a lot of inspiration from my biggest influences but then I started realizing that there was a lot more to this. Like, I’m thinking more within the bounds of what people have shown me, but what if I start thinking about what I want to show myself? You need a box to begin with in order to start thinking outside of it. What if I decide to take a few more steps outside the boundary? I guess I am competitive in some cases, but what really matters to me is if I like the music, if I’m getting the sounds out there, and if I’m expressing myself. If I can continue to better myself from the last day and so on.
KP
What do you think playing the piano taught you that you didn’t learn from playing the drums and vice versa?
NS
The piano taught me more about basic music theory. I’m not a nerd as much as I want to be when it comes to music theory, unfortunately. Although I learned it classically, I had to unlearn a lot of it when I started making the music I make nowadays. In percussion, I didn’t get assigned the main parts because I don’t play the drum kit or the marimba that well. Being around the weirder parts helped me appreciate the smaller details in the music. My parents and I would always, right after a concert night or whatever, we would go back home and rewatch the concert on a phone. And whenever I heard it all come together I realized the entire piece would be different if it weren’t for, like, two specific bongo hits. It could be two eighth notes that held a lot of the music together.
KP
What equipment do you use to make your music?
NS
I use the SP404 Mark II, which is like my child now. It’s one of the most versatile machines I have. I made my first song with just an SP404A, a really sh—y headphone cable, and Audacity. My friend would plug in his guitar here, I would sequence it out, it was so f—ing painstaking. But it got the work out.
KP
How many years ago was that, when you started writing your first songs?
NS
On that machine, like 2 years ago.
KP
Just 2 years?
NS
Yeah, I’ve only been in the game for 2 years.
KP
That’s crazy! It sounds like you’ve been doing it for a lot longer to me.
NS
I mean, because when I put out stuff I have a lot more that I don’t release that isn’t intended to be heard by other people.
KP
About what percentage of songs do you release compared to unreleased?
NS
30%, 35% released.
KP
And you have a ton of albums. I’m amazed. When you’re compiling songs for one of these albums, are you just taking whatever songs you’ve written most recently? Or are you maybe picking stuff from a year ago because it sounds better with this song or that song? What’s your process for choosing which songs go where?
NS
A lot of the stuff I make is made in bulk. Not like quantity over quality, but what you hear in most of those beat tapes are a specific time period of my life. I make them around the same time as I release them. If you see a tape I made with like 8 tracks, know that there’s at least 10 or 20 other tracks that didn’t make the cut. And I just kind of leave them there until I wonder if maybe I could pick it up again…but that’s never the case, because I usually kind of finish them. A lot of the themes now in my more recent work are actually specific periods of my life. Collages being an example, this album is good to look back on because I had a good year around there for the beginning of my senior year in high school. And then a lot of the “Humanity’s Last Party” trilogy — with HLP, Fuchsia Tones, and Post Obsolescence — I think it’s safe to say I fell in love with someone during that phase, had a good relationship going, and then ended up heartbroken afterwards too hahaha. I kind of just treat everything in little chapters. Especially when it comes to music, I just try to capture a specific energy that I’m feeling at the very moment. And if it’s very consistent, then it can come out to be a specific kind of emotion these beat tapes can cater to.
KP
Since you’re treating these albums as if they are chapters in your life, do you find that for a lot of these songs you’re writing them in a week or even a day, and focusing a lot of energy on finishing them before moving on to the next song? Or would you rather start something, maybe leave it aside for a month, and come back to it?
NS
Start and finish. Yeah, move on, start and finish, move on, start and finish, move on. I make something and if it sounds good, I move on. Maybe I can add stuff later. But I’ve kind of learned — I had to unlearn from classical music, just tying it back — that I had to let go of the idea of perfectionism because an ideal beat is not a human one.
KP
Can you elaborate a bit on what you had to unlearn from performing classical music?
NS
I’m referring to the way that I practiced classical music back then — I always strived for that perfection. There’s this thing when you get into the zone of music, it’s like you want to keep practicing it over and over again until you get it “right.” Sometimes, you gotta really take it back and look at the bigger picture, and that’s when you can finally understand what’s going on. You can take it slow and then slowly start amplifying it up until you get there. I didn’t realize that when I was younger. When I practiced classical music I wanted it to be perfect. Every diminuendo, every specific piano marking in there had to be done and all that kind of stuff. I had to make sure I was on top of my game, but it was more for the sake of perfectionism. I had to unlearn a lot of that. You can practice a song perfectly all you want, the day of the performance it’s gonna be imperfect. All the performances I’ve watched, I know that the musicians know that they’ve made a mistake. But does anyone else care if they made one little mistake? At the end of the day it’s music, the end product is still gonna be good. Overall, there’s no such thing as a perfect product.
You notice how a lot of producers — like Madlib, J Dilla, Ohbliv — they always have those little mixing or drumming imperfections and stuff, but it’s honest.
KP
I’m glad you mentioned J Dilla and Madlib because I’ve wanted to ask you: who do you think has influenced you the most? Growing up, who did you listen to the most? Who do you listen to the most now? Is there one artist who you find yourself coming back to all the time for inspiration?
NS
When I was younger I used to listen to a lot of OPM (Original Pilipino Music) with my parents. My dad had this really bootlegged radio station on his iPod with just all Filipino love songs, and I would just be chillin with that. The one thing that got me into rap when I was younger was Childish Gambino’s “Because the Internet.” I know it might not seem like a perfect album to everyone, but for me that was revolutionary in the way it introduced me to a completely new genre. After that, I just started listening to Tyler, the Creator and other very obvious stuff. The rabbit hole deepened after that, as I went back in time in terms of music selection, I started listening to more jazz and a lot more R&B stuff. Shout out to Ray, Goodman & Brown and a lot of George Benson and Shirley Marshall.
KP
Is there one album that made you want to start writing beats?
NS
Do you know Bad Snacks? She’s this amazing producer and beat maker. And I actually didn’t get introduced to her music at first, it was actually this video of an sp 404. It’s a 4 minute video. She was like, “Oh, yeah, here’s the SP404.” It was all sticker-bombed and stuff. I was like, “what is this machine?” So I started doing more research, I looked into her channel, I found her music. But I think it was that video that literally jumpstarted my interest. And a lot of the Le Mellotron SP404 live sets, with Tajima Hal or Khryo. But if there was one album that completely changed the way I looked at hip hop as a whole, it would have to be “Hud Dreems” by Knxwledge. Oh my god, I think the track that completely f–ked me up was letuleave.[geekdop]. It freaked me the f–k out when I was listening. I was like, wait, this is nuts. Like how do I do this? You could do this? Oh my god. I think it was like there was no drums on it. There was just the pure sample and it was just him interpolating specific audio clips of his stuff. And then it hits this beat switch halfway through after he sampled this Nardwuar interview. And as soon as those drums hit, I was freaking out.
KP
I want to ask you about one of my personal favorite songs of yours, oh no. no no no no no. When you’re programming the drums on a song like this one, it has so much feel that it sounds as if you’re just hitting drum pads with your fingers — but then you throw in certain rolls that couldn’t possibly have been played on a drum pad. So is half of the drum programming hitting pads at the right times, and the other half is programming stuff in afterward? In short, how are you getting this sound?
NS
I mean, it’s honestly pretty straightforward: that roll is actually a single sample. It’s a snare roll sampled into one pad, so I can hit it when I’m finger drumming. Let me see if I can pull up the project for you.
*At this point, Nicho shared his screen to show me the original audio file for “Oh no. no no no no no.” I promised not to share sample sources!*
KP
Before you show me the drums on this track, can I ask: do you ever use synthesizers?
NS
I had one, but now I use all stock plugins. If it works for me, then it works for everyone. I used to have a pocket piano by Critter and Guitari, but I gave that to my literal brother, my best friend. It was like a going away gift; something from me to him.
KP
So back to this drum track….
NS
Yeah. So can you tell how some of the drums are a little bit unkiltered and stuff? Sometimes I use this function on Ableton where I can quantize them just a tiny bit here and there…
KP
It shifts all the drums one way or the other?
NS
Yeah, but honestly, I just kind of use it on the high hats.
KP
It does have a little bit of that drunk swing — is that only applied to the high hats on this song? Are the kicks and the snares on the beat?
NS
To be honest, it’s honestly not even, like, individual drums. A lot of people tend to focus it on individual drums. I mean, yeah, there are a lot of easy things you could do like late kicks, early clap here and there. But honestly, just play it out normally, that’s really it. I don’t try too hard. Just kind of feel it out. Eventually the natural pocket will just come to you. That’s what I figured out. I remember spending so much time programming drums rather than thinking of it as a whole. It’s so much easier then….
KP
That’s what I love about this song. The drums have so much feel, and fit the samples you chose so perfectly. Later in the track there’s a vocal sample…
NS
This is actually my good friend Lanie — shout out to Lanie! — she came over to my house and we just made these dumb covers of Childish Gambino’s Sweatpants. It’s that, just chopped up. That’s it.
KP
Was that vocal sample recorded the same day you were making the song?
NS
Oh no, that was like archives, dude. That was recorded at least a month before I made the song.
KP
As you were writing the song, were you listening to the drumbeat you had just programmed and thought, “Oh, I remember this thing we recorded months ago and it would fit really well right here…” or was it an accident?
NS
A lot of the things I do in my music, my reasoning is: “because it’s funny.” So I did that because I thought about it and I was like, “Oh man, that’d be pretty funny if I put that on.” And honestly, most of the stuff on my discography is because I said “Oh, that would be funny if I added that on” and then it ends up being like an integral part to the track. Yeah, it just works like that, man.
KP
Well I totally get that sense when I listen to your music, that a lot of it is just you’re just having fun, and I think that’s why your music has so much personality. Do you think there’s an album or a song that you’ve written that exemplifies your music the best? If you had to pick one song or album to show someone what your music is about, could you pick one?
NS
I do have an answer in mind: Pillow Talk off of “Fuchsia Tones.” But when people say “what’s the track that genuinely defines you?”, I go by album, personally. But it’s really just up to the listener — as long as it can connect to you, that’s all I’m aiming for. And I have that connection with myself. So I’m already self fulfilled in that kind of way.
KP
Do you have any projects for the future lined up?
NS
I’ll be going to Berklee College of Music in the fall.
KP
Congratulations! That’s a hard school to get in to.
NS
I appreciate it. I was very blessed. I did my audition in front of Daedulus. Oh my God, I was freaking out.
KP
Is there a recording of this audition somewhere?
NS
I have a side project Chno — it’s this whole other bag of worms. The first track on Alien Fashion Week Vol. 1 is what I did for my Berkeley audition. I do have something else to share about that audition now that you mention it. Shoutout to my friend Annie Elise, I remember she said something along the lines of, “you know, in my Berklee audition, I gave a CD of my music to them and they liked it. They actually got back to me.” So at the end of my audition, Daedulus said “Okay, do you have anything else to share with us before you go?” And I was just so hyped because I felt like I did really good. I ended up saying, “actually I have an album I want to share with you, if that’s okay.” I didn’t think too much of it, just a little calling card, whatever. But here’s one of the perks of having your Socials linked on your Bandcamp page. It’s very important to have those kinds of things linked up. If it wasn’t for that, Daedulus wouldn’t have found me afterward. And they actually ended up tweeting, “can I also give a shout out to this hopeful student, Nicho, I bet they’re getting into Berklee. And it sounds good.”
KP
No way!
NS
I was crying, I was crying, I was like profusely crying. It was the biggest moment for me, and I couldn’t help but cry because it felt like a lot of my hard work had just finally paid off.
KP
Are there any other musicians, like Daedelus, who you hope to meet someday or collaborate with?
NS
I had a collaboration with this upcoming rapper: Ghais Guevara. He used my song Hold on Tight off of my album “S flat” as the beat for his song Rayman Legends. I’m also currently working on some new music with Annie Elise. We’ve been through a lot, but also want to be able to empower and give that energy of love out through our music. We just played a show at Bill’s Bar in Boston! It was tight as hell.
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You can hear more of Nicho’s music at his bandcamp page, or by tuning in to Donuts every Thursday from 4 to 6PM on KZSC, 88.1FM